Gay Dating — How Speculating on the Doctrine Can Hurt

We're back for a new season! 

On today’s episode, why do some church members think the doctrine is unclear when it comes to gay dating? Is it unclear? How can we know, what can we do about it, and how can we move forward? Also, how can a "maybe the doctrine will change" narrative negatively affect church members who experience same-sex attraction?

We’ll also be taking your questions at the end of the episode. 

On this podcast, we are faith-affirming first. This means before anything else, we affirm and support the doctrine of Jesus Christ as found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a 5-star review.

Order Skyler's book
https://www.deseretbook.com/product/6026415.html

Listen to Skyler's Audiobook
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1462144489/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1678206898&sr=8-1

Follow us on Instagram
https://instagram.com/sitdownwithsky?utm_medium=copy_link

Follow us on Twitter
https://twitter.com/sitdownwithsky?s=21

All of our links:
https://linktr.ee/Sitdownwithsky

Transcript

00;00;01;05 - 00;00;06;18
Unknown
Welcome back to sit down with Sky and Amanda, where we're navigating a divisive world in a mixed orientation marriage.

00;00;06;21 - 00;00;16;05
Unknown
On this podcast, we are a faith affirming first. This means before anything else, we affirm and support the doctrine of Jesus Christ as found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

00;00;16;05 - 00;00;21;29
Unknown
On today's episode, why do some church members think the doctrine is unclear when it comes to gay dating?

00;00;21;29 - 00;00;23;29
Unknown
Is it unclear? How can we know?

00;00;24;00 - 00;00;27;01
Unknown
What can we do about it? And how can we move forward?

00;00;27;01 - 00;00;29;27
Unknown
We'll also be taking your questions at the end of the episode.

00;00;29;27 - 00;00;33;29
Unknown
All that and more on today's episode of Sit Down with Sky and Amanda

00;00;39;05 - 00;00;40;19
Unknown
by my book,

00;00;40;19 - 00;00;52;26
Unknown
Follow My Substack. Follow us on Instagram substack. You know, you just read my announcements so I don't have to now do that every single time.

00;00;52;26 - 00;01;17;26
Unknown
What does that even from? I have no idea. Do your announcements. Welcome back, everybody. After a rather abrupt end to our last season, we're back. Finally, we apologize for it. Kind of just happened. Yeah, just kind of life happened, and I lost my job for the second time. A second time in 2023. And now we announced before. Well, he still doesn't have a job.

00;01;17;26 - 00;01;43;22
Unknown
So, yeah, we laugh, but we're getting there. We're laughing out of pain. Yeah, They laugh or you cry. Exactly. So for some reason, we decided to get back into recording on a night when Remy has how many teeth coming in, how many miles to Moyers to molars coming in. And it canker sores is a canker sore, and she's just in there playing so severe scatting in there singing.

00;01;43;22 - 00;02;02;20
Unknown
Who knows she can do that shield. I think her record is two and a half hours just laying in her crib like singing and just playing until she starts crying and saying, We have to go in there. So hope is that her. It was her, but I don't know. We might have to pause this in a second. Hopefully we can get through it.

00;02;02;20 - 00;02;12;20
Unknown
Maybe not. We'll see. but yeah, we got our nice candle. Ambiance, ambiance, ambiance, ambiance. Going. We got our.

00;02;12;20 - 00;02;15;20
Unknown
She's. She's crying. I'm going to deposit.

00;02;20;22 - 00;02;48;20
Unknown
Okay, We're back again. We're back from break. And we're back for, trying to get Remi back to sleep with us. Yeah, she's. I think I just heard her again, but I did. so whenever I go in there, she'll be, like, extra snugly to try and coax me into staying. I'm pretty sure probably, like, if I'm extra cute and snuggly where you stay later, can I delay what time I have to go to bed?

00;02;48;25 - 00;03;13;15
Unknown
But she can't fool me. Her. She can't. She can't coax me. That's not true. That's absolutely not true. so yeah, you very briefly mentioned a few housekeeping things early on. Just a reminder to you can buy my book on does are books website or Amazon. the the audible version is available as well on Audible or Spotify.

00;03;13;16 - 00;03;38;06
Unknown
You can listen to his voice for how long is it the smooth milky voice. So like, how long is the don't know how long the audiobook is, but for hours on end. Six or 7 hours maybe, but put on 1.25 speed. It reads a lot better. and then, yeah, if you want to follow me on Substack, I post articles every now and then I, I just post one.

00;03;38;09 - 00;03;51;25
Unknown
I guess when this was released a couple of weeks ago about this topic they were going into today, and then on Instagram you can follow us. I will post things on there related to these topics and it's a jolly good time. So

00;03;51;25 - 00;03;59;09
Unknown
follow us there as well. I'm going to be staring at you the whole time because I've been super sick.

00;03;59;13 - 00;04;20;28
Unknown
Yeah. We also decided to start recording when you've been sick, so I am a total mouth breather right now because I'm so congested. so I get to stare at Skyler the whole time, so, you know, So your mouth isn't directly. I'm not into the microphone and yet there you did it. I just do it. I mean, just for an example, right?

00;04;20;28 - 00;04;47;26
Unknown
So they know what I'm saving them from. Sorry, too. Everyone who's wearing headphones right now. yes, I know that. okay, so to start off here, we just want to go over like, what is the conversation online right now regarding gay dating? because it's been kind of on and off conversation that has existed in, on LDS, LDS online.

00;04;48;03 - 00;05;10;13
Unknown
I say that as a, as if it's like AOL on, like, like us, like in LDS circles online. It's been kind of a reoccurring, topic. And I think it's ramped up recently given the fact that there have been several prominent influencers who are either in an openly gay relationship

00;05;10;13 - 00;05;13;19
Unknown
or open to it or yeah, that weird. Yeah.

00;05;13;19 - 00;05;18;20
Unknown
But in a gay relationship or open to it or

00;05;18;20 - 00;05;37;08
Unknown
anything under that umbrella, right? Yeah. So that's kind of why that topic I think has come up recently is, is because there have been some prominent LDS figures who are gay, who have been in have are in a gay relationship or open to it and kind of

00;05;37;08 - 00;05;41;03
Unknown
whether they want to or not,

00;05;41;03 - 00;05;50;26
Unknown
standing as like a, an example of this idea that you can, you know, be an active member of the church and pursue a same sex relationship.

00;05;50;26 - 00;05;55;09
Unknown
And those two things can exist in harmony, essentially.

00;05;55;09 - 00;06;03;12
Unknown
and I think members of the church like there's different variations of where the, the they'll draw the line in regards to

00;06;03;12 - 00;06;06;02
Unknown
same sex romantic intimacy.

00;06;06;02 - 00;06;25;21
Unknown
some draw it at like anything beyond platonic is wrong or dating is fine, but not marriage. or like some sort of union is okay, but again, not marriage or some people believe that there really is no line in marriage.

00;06;25;24 - 00;06;30;25
Unknown
to the same sex is totally fine and within the bounds of the gospel as long as you live other,

00;06;30;25 - 00;07;00;29
Unknown
principles of chastity. So that's kind of the gradation and obviously all sorts of variation in their with different members and influencers who, who talk about these things. Yeah. So we just wanted to start off here, talking, I say that we, we want to continue, we already started, we wanted to continue and just kind of go into like, what do we know about the doctrine, What is the doctrine?

00;07;01;01 - 00;07;09;18
Unknown
Because there's kind of like the hard lines of the doctrine and then kind of the spirit of the law. Like there's letter in the spirit of the law.

00;07;09;18 - 00;07;16;10
Unknown
and I think each are equally as important, but we often talk about them like

00;07;16;10 - 00;07;18;02
Unknown
the letter is

00;07;18;02 - 00;07;20;08
Unknown
more important than the spirit of the law.

00;07;20;08 - 00;07;21;25
Unknown
it depends on who you're talking to.

00;07;21;25 - 00;07;41;07
Unknown
I feel like if you talk to some people, they'll say the spirit of the law is more important than the letter of the law than following it today. But some people would say the opposite. Yeah, I guess I, I mean that in the context of like some people look at the hard lines of what the doctrine. I see.

00;07;41;10 - 00;08;04;20
Unknown
And paint that as the letter of the law and then any sort of disregard kind of like and then like disregard the purpose behind the law and so that there's like wiggle room to make choices that are contradictory. I think what you're trying to say, trying to say, I get what you're saying very eloquently saying, so we have a therapy session.

00;08;04;21 - 00;08;26;27
Unknown
I'm getting a lot of hostile vibes. my God, Not even. What we do know about the doctrine is, I mean, prophets have been pretty clear about the fact that marriage is between a man and a woman. Yeah, and, well, that's kind of like where the confusion happens is obviously marriage between a man and woman, a man and a woman.

00;08;27;03 - 00;09;00;05
Unknown
That's like the core piece of the doctrine. And the family unit. That's like what we look at as the generally understood. Like there's not a lot of bickering about that as a core principle or core doctrine. The confusion happens a little bit regarding same sex dating where it's kind of like, well, technically that's not a marriage. And so is there some sort of moral ambiguity there and like wiggle room with the doctrine because it's not marriage.

00;09;00;07 - 00;09;11;01
Unknown
And so that's kind of where we start getting into this conversation and where people will like put that sort of room for interpretation into the gospel.

00;09;11;01 - 00;09;16;15
Unknown
we will call like what we call what most people just call gay dating.

00;09;16;15 - 00;09;24;11
Unknown
when you look at like church resources or the language that you'll see is, well, you'll never hear them say gay dating.

00;09;24;11 - 00;09;40;15
Unknown
Yeah, it's, that's kind of more like a that's like a colloquialism. Yeah, I like more more of a modern this is a modern way to say cultural term, I guess. But you will see the condemnation of same sex, romantic behavior or they'll just say homosexual behavior,

00;09;40;15 - 00;09;45;10
Unknown
and talk about it as immoral. And so I personally think,

00;09;45;10 - 00;09;58;26
Unknown
looking at like the repeated counsel and direction from modern prophets, I think it's safe to call, especially things that are repeated, like there may be like a one off

00;09;58;26 - 00;10;04;21
Unknown
statement from a church leader that might be more of just like an opinion that might,

00;10;04;21 - 00;10;08;08
Unknown
might not totally jive with someone else's opinion, but things that are

00;10;08;08 - 00;10;37;08
Unknown
repeated, things that are in like repeated in church resources. I think it's safe to call doctrine, or at the very least functionally the same as doctrine. Because if we believe in the role of prophets, if we believe in their calling, like what is the difference between something that is canonized like doctrine versus repeated counsel from men that we believe are prophets of God?

00;10;37;09 - 00;10;41;26
Unknown
Like, I don't I don't really know the difference between those two things.

00;10;41;26 - 00;10;51;15
Unknown
I don't know if there really is a difference. Functionally speaking, I don't think there's much of a reason to treat them differently, at least. Yeah, I would say

00;10;51;15 - 00;11;11;08
Unknown
There's this article that kind of goes into this idea. It's by Jeffrey Thane and Megan Koehler, and they wrote for Public Square magazine, which is a really great LDS publication. not officially put out by the church, but, I believe a nonprofit organization.

00;11;11;10 - 00;11;36;15
Unknown
and they put out really, really great stuff. I've interacted a little bit with Jeffrey and Megan, and I think they're both great, but it's called rules versus principles. which should we benchmark our lives against? And it's a little bit long. I'm not going to read the whole article, but there's this, these couple of paragraphs I picked out that I think really do a good job of explaining this letter versus spirit of the law idea.

00;11;36;17 - 00;12;03;29
Unknown
And he talks about it, breaking it down as rules based moral reasoning versus principles based moral reasoning. So I'm just going to read it and then kind of tie that back into what we were talking about. So rules based moral reasoning asks, is behavior X a violation of the rules? And if so, is that grave enough to warrant discipline in other words, the question focuses on the bright lines drawn by the rules.

00;12;04;01 - 00;12;36;14
Unknown
If we engage in rules based moral reasoning, anything which is not explicitly forbidden is allowed. Any perceived proscription against that broader set of behaviors is merely a cultural artifact. A parasitical rule added on top of the law. The word of wisdom from this perspective forbids coffee and tea, but says nothing about drinking gallons of sugary drinks. And so any attempt to encourage or reinforce a norm against sugary drinks goes above and beyond the rules.

00;12;36;17 - 00;13;03;05
Unknown
In contrast, behavior based moral reasoning asks what is the principle behind the rules? Instead of asking what is allowed, principles based moral reasoning looks for what is good and chooses. B Excuse me, behavior is suited to obtaining that good. For example, we might ask What is the principle behind the word of wisdom? There might be several treating our bodies as sacred temples for our spirit and avoiding addictions.

00;13;03;07 - 00;13;28;01
Unknown
From this principle, we can extrapolate that drinking gallons of sugar every day, while not quote against the rules, is still a violation of the principles implied by the word of wisdom. And while it won't and shouldn't keep us from attending the temple, it would probably be good to cultivate community norms of healthy living that extend beyond the direct prescriptions against coffee and tea.

00;13;28;03 - 00;14;05;05
Unknown
So I think he really or they make an and Jeffrey really outline this idea really well so there's kind of like the hard lines of the gospel and we know them like there's there's not a lot of it's like the law of chastity, for example. That's a hard line in regards to this conversation. You know, that's a hard line we know or that is anything that goes above and beyond it and tries to make that a norm and like a rule is going above and beyond what the rules based.

00;14;05;17 - 00;14;26;18
Unknown
But is it rules based thinking, moral reasoning? Yeah. And would it would say, well, that goes above and beyond. Yeah. And so there's this kind of a condemnation of doing so. And, and the word he used here is like parasitical They rule parasitical and we struggle with that word. Basically you're being a Pharisee if you,

00;14;26;18 - 00;14;43;08
Unknown
in an effort to live the principle of the rule, put these different restrictions on that might not technically be part of the rule, but follow the principle behind the rule and get you to where the rule is trying to get you.

00;14;43;10 - 00;14;49;23
Unknown
But if you break it down to the principles, what's the principle behind living the law of chastity?

00;14;49;23 - 00;15;14;17
Unknown
the principle of eternal families. I'm probably butchering this so hard, but no, the main the principle is eternal families are it's a marriage between a man and a woman. And chastity is I mean, we all know Chaz's put so so big over her, you know, out of practice.

00;15;14;20 - 00;15;44;01
Unknown
We'll give you a pass because you're sick. no, I think you're getting that. You're. You're getting there, buddy. You get there, But good try. No, but like, the the principle is, man, like, marriage is between a man and a woman, and that is the hard line. but the the principles based moral reasoning would ask what principles can get me to that?

00;15;44;01 - 00;15;44;23
Unknown
So it's like

00;15;44;23 - 00;16;01;08
Unknown
in a way, like if I'm pursuing a same sex relationship, if you want to argue, that's not technically against the doctrine. you could I guess you could. You could. I think you could do that. Yeah, that's fine. Like we have our agency in our own ability to interpret the doctrine.

00;16;01;08 - 00;16;07;19
Unknown
but I think if you look at the purpose behind the gospel, you're going to be

00;16;07;19 - 00;16;17;21
Unknown
it's going to be difficult to argue the utility behind a gay relationship because again, the overarching principle is

00;16;17;21 - 00;16;24;10
Unknown
technical marriage, a temple marriage, and dating someone of the same sex is not going to get you to that point.

00;16;24;13 - 00;16;46;10
Unknown
Like if if you're not like the very connotation of dating the the understood meaning of dating or environment of dating is that there's going to be romantic expression. If there's not romantic expression and exploration, I think that could just be called hanging out for like a friend. A friend like if you call something dating,

00;16;46;10 - 00;16;54;07
Unknown
that means there is going to be romantic expression and it's going to lead to something beyond just that.

00;16;54;07 - 00;16;56;09
Unknown
And so I think

00;16;56;09 - 00;17;00;19
Unknown
I guess it's a little bit short sighted to

00;17;00;19 - 00;17;03;18
Unknown
try to justify a gay relationship.

00;17;03;18 - 00;17;14;17
Unknown
without looking beyond just the relationship. Like, what is the ultimate conclusion of what you're doing? It is a marriage or a long term relationship

00;17;14;17 - 00;17;22;16
Unknown
I don't understand why we would want to put ourselves as close to the line as possible.

00;17;22;18 - 00;17;31;22
Unknown
You know, I feel like going back to what you said, the purpose of dating is to find a spouse and a partner.

00;17;31;22 - 00;17;37;29
Unknown
So if you put yourself in that position and you're dating people of the same sex,

00;17;37;29 - 00;17;40;25
Unknown
what's the inevitable outcome is?

00;17;40;25 - 00;17;46;10
Unknown
as much as you don't want it to be the outcome, even if you're saying, no, no, I'm not going to act on anything.

00;17;46;10 - 00;17;51;26
Unknown
I mean, I feel like that is what the outcome is of dating. And apart from

00;17;51;26 - 00;18;07;29
Unknown
a temple marriage, I mean, if you do end up breaking the law of chastity, of someone of the same sex, that's going to exclude you from the blessing of going to the temple, period, just by yourself, you know, and participating in the endowment.

00;18;08;01 - 00;18;38;22
Unknown
And so I yeah, I just don't see the point of getting that close to the line. I'm struggling to breathe, guys. That Justin is a killer, Yeah, I think you're right, though. And people, some people take issue with like comparing the struggle of same sex attraction with things like alcoholism because it's not a perfect comparison. There are obviously differences, but I think you can still draw some sort of comparison that can be helpful.

00;18;38;29 - 00;18;49;26
Unknown
It's like in this instance, if you have a proclivity toward alcohol, but your belief system says that alcohol is wrong like ours does

00;18;49;26 - 00;19;08;17
Unknown
then it would probably be a bad idea to go to a liquor store to walk down the aisle, to pick a bottle up in your hand, to take it to the cash register, like to take those steps that inevitably lead you to drinking the alcohol.

00;19;08;19 - 00;19;24;13
Unknown
And it's the same kind of concept if you put yourself in the liquor store, Yeah, you're one step closer to picking up something and buying it and drinking it, right? So again, if you don't want to classify gay dating as technically against the doctrine,

00;19;24;13 - 00;19;28;04
Unknown
again, like you have to look at the utility of

00;19;28;04 - 00;19;32;19
Unknown
what is the purpose behind a gay relationship and is this a good idea?

00;19;32;19 - 00;19;41;29
Unknown
If I want to uphold my covenants and I want to live on the covenant path, like, right, It's like in direct contradiction to living the covenant path

00;19;41;29 - 00;19;43;04
Unknown
because it

00;19;43;04 - 00;19;57;20
Unknown
has inevitable consequences. But so where does this misinterpretation or whatever you want to call it of the doctrine come from? I think there are probably a lot of different factors.

00;19;57;23 - 00;20;31;16
Unknown
one that I outlined in my recent substack article is I think, kind of a misunderstanding or like a difference in the language that we use to describe these things. So for instance, in the, in like modern culture or the LGBTQ world, you'll hear, like I said earlier, you'll hear gay dating referenced to mean the same thing that church leaders mean when they say same sex romantic behavior or just homosexual behavior.

00;20;31;19 - 00;20;51;00
Unknown
Like, I think it's safe to say when our leaders were writing these manuals and these handbooks and these talks that when they say things like homosexual behavior, it's the same sort of thing that we picture in our minds when we say gay dating, like, I think those can be interchangeable. I think that's safe.

00;20;51;00 - 00;20;56;01
Unknown
And so especially if they say same sex romantic behavior.

00;20;56;04 - 00;21;03;24
Unknown
That's pretty clear. Like, that's pretty clear. But I've seen some, some of that confusion just because

00;21;03;24 - 00;21;18;07
Unknown
if you go on LDS dot org or, I guess Church of Jesus Christ Network and type in gay dating, you're not going to get any search results. Or if you type in same sex dating like same thing, you're not going to get any search results.

00;21;18;09 - 00;21;43;02
Unknown
but you just kind of have to replace in your mind that difference of language. And I think that can be for me it was really helpful because when I initially went into writing that paper, I wanted to go into like, see, okay, what does what do official church resources say about this topic? And initially I would I was typing in gay dating like gay same sex dating, and I wasn't getting anything.

00;21;43;04 - 00;21;44;07
Unknown
And so

00;21;44;07 - 00;22;07;08
Unknown
I kind of had this weird moment where I was like, have they not said anything about this? And I was really confused because I, I knew that they must have and like, I've heard that they have talked about these things, but because I was using the wrong terminology, I wasn't getting anything. Once I had that switch, it was a lot easier to understand what they have said about this, and it was a lot more helpful.

00;22;07;08 - 00;22;23;04
Unknown
So I think that's one of the one of the things, one of the reasons this confusion happens. I think another one is misguided compassion from members who are not under the LGBTQ umbrella. I think

00;22;23;04 - 00;22;24;05
Unknown
they

00;22;24;05 - 00;22;28;29
Unknown
see the struggle and the heartache that the LGB

00;22;28;29 - 00;22;31;01
Unknown
take you members face

00;22;31;01 - 00;22;42;10
Unknown
and they want to alleviate that in some in some regard and without fully understanding and fully doing a deep dive into everything.

00;22;42;13 - 00;22;48;29
Unknown
The easiest solution is, well, let's just take away any sort of

00;22;48;29 - 00;22;56;14
Unknown
standard because that will alleviate their pain. It doesn't really, I think true compassion comes from

00;22;56;14 - 00;23;09;21
Unknown
telling the truth. And even if it's hard to hear and then helping our brothers and sisters and enabling them to follow that truth, giving them all the tools and skills and ability to follow it.

00;23;09;24 - 00;23;39;08
Unknown
But it upfront, it seems like the easiest solution. Yeah, we've talked about this idea before. Kind of like the mama bear instinct or like the more feminine, motherly instinct to want to remove suffering from your child. And especially in the short term, that's a very strong pull. Like when you love somebody and you see them suffering in some way, it's natural to want to take that away.

00;23;39;10 - 00;23;42;03
Unknown
And so I think that same idea

00;23;42;03 - 00;23;53;23
Unknown
happens in our our, our culture, our church, culture where people, like you said, see the struggle that the very real struggle, like the very real hurt that,

00;23;53;23 - 00;24;26;28
Unknown
same sex attracted Latter-Day Saints face and, and wanting to mourn with those that mourn will go will want to take that away. And instead of looking to appropriate sources like know modern prophets and the scriptures and reveal doctrine, they'll look to kind of more modern ideas and prescriptions on how to help these individuals, which inevitably contradicts the doctrine and the purpose and, the, the covenant path.

00;24;26;28 - 00;24;50;22
Unknown
I think it's like most of the time is well-meaning and wanting to help these individuals, but I just wish I could explain, like, adequately explain how grateful I am that they, they have this compassion for church members similar to me or like in a similar situation, but how saddened I am that their efforts are having,

00;24;50;22 - 00;24;52;09
Unknown
I think, the opposite effect from them.

00;24;52;09 - 00;24;59;07
Unknown
They intend it's pushing them further away from their savior and their covenants. Not not closer.

00;24;59;07 - 00;25;01;13
Unknown
And I mean,

00;25;01;13 - 00;25;22;03
Unknown
it does seem really unfair, you know, to ask this of gay members of the church to forego a relationship of someone that they're traditionally attracted to. It does upfront seem unfair. And I think you could say that it is unfair, like it is a disparity.

00;25;22;03 - 00;25;51;08
Unknown
It is a difference in an expectation. like straight members of the church are not asked to give up a relationship with someone they're traditionally attracted to. But same sex attracted members are. So that's a difference. That's a despair. But I think in our culture we've gotten to the point where when there is a some sort of disparity, we have this natural inclination to say something is wrong and something needs to be fixed.

00;25;51;08 - 00;26;03;29
Unknown
And so that there is the so this disparity does not exist. But I think that misunderstands in this context misunderstands the gospel and the nature of

00;26;03;29 - 00;26;17;28
Unknown
life. And like our different struggles, we're each going to have different things that we that are harder for us, different commandments that are harder or easier for us to follow. We're not

00;26;17;28 - 00;26;27;12
Unknown
equal like we are equal in value, but we're not equal in our experiences, in our proclivities and our, well, temptations.

00;26;27;18 - 00;26;29;21
Unknown
And I think too, like

00;26;29;21 - 00;26;37;25
Unknown
life. And this is sounds like such a cliche, but really life is not fair. Everybody has something in their life that is unfair.

00;26;37;25 - 00;26;49;24
Unknown
But that's just the nature of life. You know, you have loss of loved ones, you have poor help, you have same sex attraction. There are so many different struggles in this life.

00;26;49;27 - 00;27;00;19
Unknown
And not to try to diminish the struggle of LGBT have congestion. Yeah, you have congestion and that to diminish the struggle of

00;27;00;19 - 00;27;02;23
Unknown
LGBTQ members.

00;27;02;23 - 00;27;07;00
Unknown
But just to put things into perspective that

00;27;07;00 - 00;27;12;24
Unknown
there really are a lot of hard things that can happen in life and a lot of obstacles that would prevent us from

00;27;12;24 - 00;27;17;08
Unknown
living up to our full potential and keeping the commitments as God has asked us

00;27;17;08 - 00;27;17;22
Unknown
to.

00;27;17;22 - 00;27;18;28
Unknown
And

00;27;18;28 - 00;27;20;20
Unknown
it's just important to note that

00;27;20;20 - 00;27;23;04
Unknown
just because something is unfair

00;27;23;04 - 00;27;43;00
Unknown
and there's a disparity doesn't mean that we should shy away from that standard or get rid of this or get rid of it. Yeah, yeah. I feel like it's easy to understand this idea and like, teach it to your child. Like, this is something that a good parent would teach their child.

00;27;43;03 - 00;27;55;25
Unknown
Like, life's not fair. You're going to experience things that your friends won't experience, and it's going to seem like maybe you have a harder and maybe you do have a harder in some ways.

00;27;55;25 - 00;28;22;25
Unknown
But you have to understand that everybody has it harder in some respects, in some. But, you know, you there's kind of that old idea where if we all got our issues and put them in a basket and then drew out people's different issues, we would keep drawing and keep the ones that we already have because we have experience with them and want to keep them because other issues that we haven't dealt with and dealt with are

00;28;22;25 - 00;28;24;23
Unknown
hard and scary and scary

00;28;24;23 - 00;28;41;25
Unknown
and unfamiliar and but yeah, I think that if we could look into the lives of others, we would see that they have it harder in some respects and easier in some respects, and that's okay. That's, that's life and that's to be expected. And it's part of the,

00;28;41;25 - 00;28;44;11
Unknown
the diversity of the human experience.

00;28;44;11 - 00;28;53;20
Unknown
it's important to remember that it doesn't change things necessarily for the here and now, but it does give us hope.

00;28;53;22 - 00;28;57;29
Unknown
So yes, it does change that aspect. But just remembering that

00;28;57;29 - 00;29;01;03
Unknown
God has promised us that all things will be made right.

00;29;01;03 - 00;29;18;07
Unknown
And so just clinging to that hope and knowing that all of the pain and heartache we've experienced will be made right at some point. Yeah, I think that's an important thing to remember, too, to hold on to that hope, because I think sometimes

00;29;18;07 - 00;29;21;15
Unknown
kind of in that same effort to have

00;29;21;15 - 00;29;37;28
Unknown
hope or have something to hold on to members of the church will entertain the idea that the doctrine is going to change and that eventually the church will catch up with culture and permit same sex, ceilings in the temple.

00;29;38;00 - 00;29;44;17
Unknown
And I think that's rooted in that same desire to give hope to these individuals.

00;29;44;17 - 00;29;48;10
Unknown
but I think that is so dangerous and so

00;29;48;10 - 00;29;56;25
Unknown
debilitating. And the word that I often hear the phrase I often use is like a religious paralysis. If you

00;29;56;25 - 00;30;07;25
Unknown
have hope in something changing in a way that is not going to change. like how am I supposed to pursue

00;30;07;25 - 00;30;08;17
Unknown
the gospel?

00;30;08;17 - 00;30;22;20
Unknown
How am I supposed to pursue covenants and walk the covenant path if the like very foundation of the path is going to change eventually? Yeah. How could you have committed to

00;30;22;20 - 00;30;35;22
Unknown
a relationship to a marriage with me, an eternal marriage, if there was always this dangling fruit ahead of you like that, it would change one day.

00;30;35;22 - 00;30;36;26
Unknown
Yeah. Just hold on then.

00;30;36;27 - 00;30;57;27
Unknown
Maybe it'll change. Yeah. And that you could have not only like you could just have a marriage with someone of the same sex, but an eternal marriage. Yeah. The best of both worlds I like. If I grew up with that idea, I don't know that I could have. And obviously, a mixed orientation. Marriage is not for everyone in my situation.

00;30;57;27 - 00;31;13;28
Unknown
We're not saying that. But for one who wants to pursue one or like feels called to the idea that maybe the doctrine will change one day is going to be such a barrier to get over, I think, or

00;31;13;28 - 00;31;23;17
Unknown
I don't know that I could have like with with that again, that carrot dangling. I don't know if I could have ignored that and

00;31;23;17 - 00;31;28;06
Unknown
pursued what we have now, which is I'm so grateful for.

00;31;28;06 - 00;31;29;06
Unknown
And so,

00;31;29;06 - 00;31;39;02
Unknown
I wouldn't trade it for anything. And I know many others in the same situation. And so it's just such a, I think a debilitating idea,

00;31;39;02 - 00;31;42;27
Unknown
and something that can be really spiritually damaging for,

00;31;42;27 - 00;32;00;23
Unknown
gay members of the church and so I think we should be really careful and I personally think not entertain that idea at all, but like, be very careful in what ideas you promote because it's going to have an actual impact on real members of the church.

00;32;00;23 - 00;32;26;03
Unknown
So, so what can we do to kind of move forward with this difference in, because there's going to continue to be differences in how we view these things with active members of the church, with former members, with kind of members, with never members like it's, they're going to continue to be differences and how we view these issues.

00;32;26;06 - 00;32;46;12
Unknown
So how do we move forward? Let's end on a positive note. I think there is room in every relationship to say I love you, but I don't agree with you on that topic. Yeah, or like, that's the ideal. That's the ideal in a healthy relationship. That that's the ideal. I know. Yeah. Say

00;32;46;12 - 00;32;52;11
Unknown
the best relationships that I have had, like the best friendships and what I would consider my best friends.

00;32;52;11 - 00;33;23;02
Unknown
I feel very comfortable saying that idea is very stupid. Like if they have something without compromising the friendship, like I feel close enough to them like that wouldn't even put a dent in your relationship at all. And it's not that I'm just kidding. Like, I'm serious. Like that idea. No, that's really, really dumb. No. Yeah. but you're still, like, even after disagreeing on something even passionately, you can still be friends.

00;33;23;02 - 00;33;48;15
Unknown
Like, those are the best relationships that I've had. And obviously it's different on, like, if you're talking online with strangers or, trying to cultivate a culture of online discourse, it's going to be, you're not going to have that sort of closeness. But I think you can try and find ways to incorporate that mindset into social media interactions or at church and,

00;33;48;15 - 00;33;51;16
Unknown
maybe bring humor into it where you can or,

00;33;51;16 - 00;33;59;27
Unknown
have that sort of loving firmness where it's again, I love you, I want the best for you, You're great, but I don't agree with that.

00;33;59;27 - 00;34;02;26
Unknown
That's, that's a harmful or it's a bad idea.

00;34;02;26 - 00;34;37;26
Unknown
Being willing to pursue that sort of balance and not going on the attack, you know, not being defensive or attacking or degrading, There's a way to do it where you're kind, respectful and but you're also, you know, firm in what you believe and we were talking a couple of days ago about like a hypothetical situation and what we would do, if we, like, went to church or a church activity or even then of like

00;34;37;26 - 00;34;41;18
Unknown
a, like a community activity or something.

00;34;41;20 - 00;34;57;01
Unknown
and someone was handing, handing, hunting, somebody was handing out, pride pens or something like that. what we would do in that situation and I put that I think I would like, I wouldn't make a scene,

00;34;57;01 - 00;35;00;04
Unknown
but I would probably say, no, thank you, I'm all right

00;35;00;04 - 00;35;03;16
Unknown
and try to leave it at that. But if they

00;35;03;16 - 00;35;05;13
Unknown
push or like want to know more.

00;35;05;13 - 00;35;33;10
Unknown
I would just try and explain that, you know, I love LGBTQ people. I technically am one in some. And like the technical sense. The technical sense, yeah. But I don't associate with the political movement tied to them. I don't like all the baggage that comes with the movement, with the symbol, the symbol of flag. Yeah. Or the rainbow, I guess.

00;35;33;10 - 00;35;47;16
Unknown
And so I choose not to represent that symbol and hopefully that's okay with them. If not, then just kind of okay, agree to disagree and move on. But

00;35;47;16 - 00;36;02;12
Unknown
again, that sort of loving firmness where I am not going to compromise my principles, but I'm also not going to create a scene unless you do and I'm involved in the scene now.

00;36;02;12 - 00;36;04;01
Unknown
Like I'm not going to,

00;36;04;01 - 00;36;06;03
Unknown
initiate that. Yeah.

00;36;06;03 - 00;36;28;23
Unknown
should we wrap it up there and take a few questions? So it sounds good. Hey, I put a call out for some anonymous questions and this app, I hate how this app will send me fake questions. Now, we figured out where it tells you where it says sent from the app is NGO not to lie and it'll tell you now.

00;36;28;25 - 00;36;38;15
Unknown
So it says, Are you in a relationship? Relationship? That's obvious, but it says something sent with love from team angle. So that is fake. Okay, let's find a real one.

00;36;38;15 - 00;36;40;06
Unknown
let's see.

00;36;40;06 - 00;36;44;10
Unknown
I miss you about fake

00;36;44;10 - 00;36;52;00
Unknown
Okay. So your thoughts on how to be compassionate yet firm in our conviction when teaching about hard truths regarding gender, family, etc..

00;36;52;02 - 00;36;59;01
Unknown
Interesting. We just kind of kind of talked about that sort of idea, finding that balance of

00;36;59;01 - 00;37;16;11
Unknown
mutual respect and loving firmness. I think that's the best way to do it. And it also kind of depends on what context you're referring to. Is this in a Sunday school? Is this like a one on one with a family member, like a child?

00;37;16;13 - 00;37;29;07
Unknown
Yeah, it really depends. And it also depends on your relationship to you have to really cultivate the relationship first and then you can have those conversations. Yeah, you're not going to go up to

00;37;29;07 - 00;37;41;12
Unknown
some say you have a distant family member who's LGBTQ or something. You're going to go up to them, say, You know, Jesus said this about this, and you're not going to do that.

00;37;41;12 - 00;37;57;14
Unknown
You're going to cultivate a real relationship with them if you're a tactless person. Yeah, if you're tactless, but you're going to you're going to know what to say. And I always go back to making sure that you are

00;37;57;14 - 00;38;03;13
Unknown
doing your best in your life so that you can have the spirit with you, because that's really

00;38;03;13 - 00;38;07;00
Unknown
the ultimate teacher and that's really what's going to guide you

00;38;07;00 - 00;38;10;05
Unknown
to know what to say, when to say it, and how to say it.

00;38;10;07 - 00;38;30;26
Unknown
Yeah, well, but I won't add anything to that because it was great. Any advice for those who don't see marriage as a viable option and now can't see how they fit into the church? broadly speaking, but more specifically for those who understand the plan as salvation but don't know what they're supposed to do during this life.

00;38;30;26 - 00;38;39;04
Unknown
Yeah, I mean, that's a big one and it's going to depend on your specific situation in some respects.

00;38;39;04 - 00;38;39;25
Unknown
But

00;38;39;25 - 00;38;42;18
Unknown
like broad principles, I would say,

00;38;42;18 - 00;38;48;13
Unknown
it like, unless you like, I would say be very careful about

00;38;48;13 - 00;38;58;03
Unknown
like taking that final step of removing marriage entirely. Like be very careful about taking that off the table permanently.

00;38;58;03 - 00;39;02;18
Unknown
you don't have to be actively pursuing it. Yeah, just don't take it 100% off the table.

00;39;02;18 - 00;39;10;23
Unknown
So you're saying, Yeah. Because, like, unless it's, you know, there may be very rare circumstances where it's just not an option.

00;39;10;23 - 00;39;12;28
Unknown
not, not going to happen.

00;39;12;28 - 00;39;19;04
Unknown
if, unless you are that very rare circumstance, I would say be careful about taking it off the table.

00;39;19;04 - 00;39;31;26
Unknown
again, don't browbeat yourself into like, I'm not pursuing this. Like, I need to day every day, like, find a different like, give yourself a little grace.

00;39;31;29 - 00;39;45;17
Unknown
but also, like, be willing to hold those two things. I don't need to pursue this right now if it doesn't feel right, but I'm not going to take it off the table. I think that's kind of the, I think finding ways to,

00;39;45;17 - 00;39;52;13
Unknown
fulfill your roles, whether you're a man or a woman, fulfill those roles in church with family.

00;39;52;19 - 00;39;58;10
Unknown
I think that brings satisfaction and purpose and meaning in life.

00;39;58;10 - 00;40;08;19
Unknown
I don't know. I just a thought I had. I like it. Can other question do people treat you oddly at church? And if so, how do you navigate it?

00;40;08;19 - 00;40;22;15
Unknown
I would say no. I think I've had like a few, a couple weird interactions where I don't know if I was just reading into things or what, but like I've had a few that were just a little awkward.

00;40;22;15 - 00;40;25;13
Unknown
But for the most part, I think

00;40;25;13 - 00;40;27;09
Unknown
I think a lot of the

00;40;27;09 - 00;40;31;05
Unknown
like when, when somebody says people are judging me at church,

00;40;31;05 - 00;40;50;14
Unknown
that might be the case. Like you might be receiving wrongful judgment and from members of the church, from other members of the ward and, and that shouldn't happen. But I think a lot of the times we attribute to things, like, we attribute malice to things that are innocuous.

00;40;50;17 - 00;40;57;08
Unknown
And if we're new and like in a new environment, we might hyper fixate on any little

00;40;57;08 - 00;41;09;05
Unknown
idiosyncrasy with like an interaction and something that is a little off. I think we might hyper fixate on something because we're in a new environment and

00;41;09;05 - 00;41;18;07
Unknown
again, attribute something that is not there. And I think one thing to to keep in mind, A, we have been in situations where

00;41;18;07 - 00;41;26;05
Unknown
we've been open about our marriage being in a mixed orientation marriage, and a lot of people don't always know how to take it.

00;41;26;05 - 00;41;46;05
Unknown
I think this sometimes happens with older generations just because our generation is so open about sexuality, but their generation was not. And so I think they just don't know how to react. And so sometimes they say something or do something that we interpret to be

00;41;46;05 - 00;41;51;07
Unknown
them treating us poorly. But it's really just their inability to know how to react.

00;41;51;10 - 00;42;12;10
Unknown
Yeah, like there's that one I think we've talked about before, where it was an older lady in the ward and you were talking to her and said something about how you're. I just yeah, I'm into my husband's gay and and she, she just like it just I could tell by her reaction she didn't know how to just, like, have a look.

00;42;12;13 - 00;42;27;03
Unknown
And then she just like, it's like her eyes got really wide and she didn't really say anything, and she just kind of looked at me weird and was like, okay, So anyway, it was weird, so let's move on. And then you just moved on and it wasn't even like I was trying to like

00;42;27;03 - 00;42;38;10
Unknown
you just had to. I was telling a story about something and it related, and so I had to just put in that detail so that it made sense because I was explaining something about the podcast.

00;42;38;10 - 00;42;39;21
Unknown
And so,

00;42;39;21 - 00;42;49;18
Unknown
you know, like that I'm going to put your pop filter. sorry. There's some popping peas and popping pee. There you go. That's better. That better? Yeah.

00;42;49;18 - 00;42;56;09
Unknown
I think another part of this is this is a little bit a little bit off the subject of the question, but not really.

00;42;56;09 - 00;43;14;20
Unknown
I think specifically with like gay members of the church who complain that people treat them differently, I think part of it might be that there's kind of an assumption if, if you maybe come out to them or open up to them

00;43;14;20 - 00;43;18;00
Unknown
there might be like this, a little bit of gaga too.

00;43;18;00 - 00;43;53;26
Unknown
That's put up because there are certain people within like LGBTQ who are very adamant and active in trying to change the again, change of the doctrine or like change the course of the church in a more secular way. and wanting to kind of deconstruct the core fundamentals of the gospel. and so I think internal families, right, like, like marriage between a man and a woman, like they have it.

00;43;53;29 - 00;44;20;14
Unknown
Yeah. So I think because there are some who are like that, members of the church might recognize that. And so if you open up to them, there might be kind of a guard that's put up like the person that is coming out, but like the LGBTQ member, the other the other church member might put up a barrier with, with the understanding that those types of LGBTQ people exist.

00;44;20;17 - 00;44;21;19
Unknown
And so,

00;44;21;19 - 00;44;33;11
Unknown
and not saying that's like a good thing, I think we should treat people as individuals, and even if members of their group are like what you could classify as their group

00;44;33;11 - 00;44;41;06
Unknown
act a certain way, that doesn't mean that they're going to. So I think we should treat people as individuals and get to know them first.

00;44;41;08 - 00;45;02;13
Unknown
But at the same time, like I think there's I always tried to make it clear, like if I do open up in a church setting, which is rare, but occasionally it happens, I try to make it very clear that I sustain our leaders and the doctrine because I think that,

00;45;02;13 - 00;45;16;08
Unknown
allows other church members to put that barrier down a little bit and like, put that guard down because I'm not going I'm not coming after your, your or our belief system that you hold so dear.

00;45;16;08 - 00;45;28;12
Unknown
I'm not I'm not here to come after that. So I always try to make that very clear, like where I stand and it puts them at ease knowing you're not going to be combative. Yeah, about LGBTQ issues.

00;45;28;12 - 00;45;45;01
Unknown
And again, like I think the onus is on both sides of this discussion where we should treat people as individuals. But also I try to do everything I can to make people, people feel comfortable and that I'm not there to shove an agenda down their throat.

00;45;45;03 - 00;45;47;08
Unknown
So that's

00;45;47;08 - 00;46;08;13
Unknown
another balance that I try to to to strike any. I think that's probably a good place to end. Yeah, it sounds good to me. yeah. Thank you for listening to this first episode of this new season. again, by my book, if you would like, also follow us on social media. Substack,

00;46;09;03 - 00;46;11;17
Unknown
other than that, we will catch in the next one.